EPISODE EIGHT : THE SHILLELAGH, IRELAND'S FIRST WEAPON

Chris and Spence are hitting each other over the head with sticks in this week’s episode of Irish Gothic….. April Fool’s ! All joking aside, on this week's episode, Chris and Spence are diving into the fascinating lore of Ireland's fighting stick : the Shillelagh. Listen in to learn more about this iconic Irish weapon. 

The Irish Gothic Podcast explores the origins of Irish Folk tales. myths and legends in all their dark, fantastical glory and how these vivid yarns continue to resonate across the world to this very day. 

Join Hosts Chris Patterson and Spence Wright as they fuse their love for all thing's horror with a wellspring of Irish lore. 

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Hosts: Chris Patterson & Spence Wright 

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https://mccaffreycrafts.com/collections/blackthorn-shillelagh?srsltid=AfmBOopWF3HF4XAZdlc-U4FPQb8kYS7zFz6KHEYvKAkC3EECsmwBtgpk

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Transcript

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0:17

I know all the folks round these arts and parts. Can't say I know you. Leastways. Not yet. But I dare say I know what you'll be wanting. Some of the crack, maybe. How we yarn with your sup, is it? No harm in that. Come on over. Warm yourself, hmm? I'll warn you though. If it's the old Begara and Blarney shenanigans you're after, you'll not hear them from me. Well, if such, like, pleases you, you sit on. I'll fill your ears. And see what story is meant for you. On this dark old night.

chris-patterson_2_10-23-2024_181531 1:22

I'm Chris

spencey-guest437_2_10-23-2024_181541 1:23

I'm Spence

chris-patterson_2_10-23-2024_181531 1:24

And this is the Irish Gothic Podcast.

squadcaster-53e9_6_03-10-2025_200321 1:35

Well, good evening folks, and welcome back to Irish Gothic. We have a episode this week, which is Irish as, I don't know, green beer on some public's day and leprechaun hats. It's the famous Sheli that, emblem of Ireland, which you surprisingly, it certainly as origins certainly surprise me. So tonight we're gonna talk about the, she.

squadcaster-53e9_7_03-10-2025_200635 2:08

So folks. I'm sure anyone who's ever been in an Irish gift shop or, been here on, on a visit or been sent a disc cloth with Irish proverbs on, they're normally bedecked with ies and they come in all tacky forms, not always tacky, but what are they, what are they all about and what actually are they? Well, they, the origins initially the, is from the majestic ancient force, in Wick and. In essence is a piece of gnarled stout, really strong black thorn wood, which would've been used, as a walking stick. It would be, has become the emblem for lots of mildy regiments in Ireland. Soly in essence, is a stick, but its history and what it was used for go is much more intriguing than. What you might think if you pick up a plastic one in a tourist shop. Chris, I believe you know a little bit about how these things were originally used.

chris-patterson_7_03-10-2025_200635 3:05

Well, most certainly the Elli was an a fighting stick. Now, of course, fighting sticks go back to the earliest origins of mankind. In fact, you know, you see the key in men with clubs and they go around clubbing each other. It's the best stick you can get, the strongest stick you can get, you can beat your enemy with it. And I suppose it was the, you know, improving, doing your modifications to it, improving it, and making it better. It was sort of the first arm race. Now, stick fighting as a martial arts was once common throughout Europe. And indeed the word vesti, you'd still survive. Notably maybe France, Italy, Portugal, Japan, the Philippines. South Africa, New Zealand, and of course Ireland. The enduring nature of the n iconic Shali owes its survival to a fascinating amalgam of law, propaganda, colonialism, and xenophobia, because you could imagine that it was the only weapon you could carry. You could use it as a walking stick, but you could also, beat the man over the head that's trying to steal your bag of gold off you as you walk down a lane. Spence.

squadcaster-53e9_7_03-10-2025_200635 4:19

Absolutely. I think it's just, was it the preferred weapon of the Let records for that very purpose, wasn't it?

chris-patterson_8_03-10-2025_201033 4:23

certainly is. Because it represents being Irish no matter where you are in the world.

squadcaster-53e9_8_03-10-2025_201033 4:28

Yeah. As you say, Chris, it is that symbol of strength and irishness and maybe even resistance, towards colonialism, as you say. I, there's so much to it. I mean that this whole tradition of stick fighting developed over centuries and, pre-farm Ireland seemed to have a lot of correlation with market days or fares. When people from different areas would all converge and and old scores would be would be settled. They talk about one notorious one, Donny Brook Fair, which was a mecca for stick fighting and tigers mayhem. You part brawls riots, death kind, I think. I believe it was up to 20 people killed at one such fight. Probably more 'cause because they had injuries later. Wouldn't manifest later on, so young fighting men come to these fairs. They would stuff their hats with straw to try and ward off, the worst effects of the stick fighting. So it's, it wasn't just the men either. Women were known to gather around the edges of these stick fights, fill their socks with, stones and pebbles, but they've got a life of brand sketch here and chuck these stone filled socks into the Malay as well to claim a few, to claim a few heads. So absolutely a symbol of chaos and riotous behavior in, in, in rural Ireland. It's a typical Saturday night.

chris-patterson_8_03-10-2025_201033 5:48

Well,

squadcaster-53e9_8_03-10-2025_201033 5:48

And again, you talked about colonialism. This was something that the sort of, the English almost used to say look how lawless and how riotous and how savage and how drunk in these ris, these parties are. And they used the Ali as almost a, as a, a. I think to mock and then show us for being less than what we are. When you compare that to the fine upstanding image of Britannia that was projected here, we were stick wheel in savages in the countryside.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 6:28

Spence, the word shali, which has its origins in the once majestic oak forest of shali in county loo, unfortunately, has now become synonymous with a certain type of tacky tourist artifact. You know, it certainly does, but however, the genuine article. a formidable weapon, mostly made from oak or blackthorn root wood around three foot long in a deadly nard knot. Varying and girth slimmer. could be poised. The sliver variety could be poised obs extensively as a highly polished walk and stick.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 7:13

It's interesting, Chris, we talk about the blackthorn, the other, tree or wood associated with iron would be the Hawthorne. I like the blackthorn. It's gnarly, it's tough, it's readily available. Any farmer who's ever had to cut down, a Hawthorne tree would say it's a job and a half. So the question then is I wonder why Blackthorn and not Hawthorne. Now I know you'll know this because of your Irish Catholic this, but we, the Hawthorne itself. Has so much connected to it in relation to the ferries and how unlucky it is considered to cut down a Hawthorne tree. And those same attachments aren't on blackthorn if you mess with the Hawthorne, there's roads in Ireland, which have been, which banned around a Hawthorne tree. The, there were some workers in DeLorean, you know, the Great car from back of the future. They believed that DeLorean went down and collapsed as a company because one of its factories was built on the site of where a Hawthorne tree had been uprooted. So, look, I can understand why people were maybe a wee bit shy of, using Hawthornes even with every bit as good a piece of wood.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:21

We mentioned Hawthorne last week in, aver talk they put Hawthorne on top of his grave. It's that mythical, links to Hawthorne like you're saying.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:34

Yep.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:34

but definitely I don't think Hawthorne, itself is a strong.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:41

I maybe not just as strong. Yeah.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:43

the

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:43

I.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 8:44

is when you I know that you've probably, you've seen the walking sticks and there's a few times we've filmed with our Shanay with a walking stick. And they are hard. I mean, if they hit you with the novelly bit on the end, you're gonna feel that, okay.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 9:00

You are going to feel it. All right. Hey, and it's not to say, Chris, that the black thorn doesn't have magical properties. 'cause interestingly, there are a few things around the black thorn, just as we aside so they can protect you against the ferries and particularly the, if I'm saying that correctly, the moon ferries. So the moon ferries were believed to look over black thorns. If you were to cut down a black thorn, the moon ferries wouldn't be so keen. So what they would say is the best time to cut? A blackthorn, if you fancy making yourself a blackthorn. Elli Chris would be during the harvest when the moon was full because those ferries would be off, doing whatever they do in the moonlight and then their eye would be off, off the ball and you'd be able to nab yourself a blackthorn. It's also a darker side to, as well, sort of regarded as a female tree in mythology. So, queen Maeve, the Morgan who we spoke about, that goddess of battle strife and fertility, and then we have the cack that the c crone of death and is believed that she started winter by banging the black thorn on the ground. And that's what herd heralded in winter. So, you know, look, again, it's just got a great pathology around it. Probably not as much as the Hawthorne. But, you know, it's certainly something that, that features in other Irish legends as well as this very real practical use that you're talking about.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 10:13

Well, I mean, they just don't come off the tree looking the way they finally look. I mean, generally, the longer sticks were known as wattles and the shorter sticks were referred to as kaing. The wound is cured with a variety of different methods, including immersing and manure. Rubbing with butter, in a chimney, and even polishing with magpie blood could be part of the process. Some Ellis loaded, weighted, and melted with lead for extra impact.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 10:46

No way.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 10:49

So these were formidable weapons.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 10:52

And it's a real art. I mean, I don't know how common it is these days, but I know, I do know a few locals here where I live in who, who do still make these sticks, and they are a thing of beauty to behold. And even more so now, knowing one their legacy, attached to them. And funny, one of the things, you know, what came up during the research was, because you mentioned there, chris about the kinda colonialism and xenophobia, you know, following the Battle of the Boy and back in 1690, a huge battle between neo protest and Catholic forces. These penal laws were brought in. Catholics were forbidden to own property and land. They weren't allowed to own horses over a certain height and. They could not be in possession of weapons. And this led to that resurgence of what you're topic, Chris, you know, the use of civilities as a weapon because other forms of weaponry were being denied. The people as part of these penal laws,

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 11:42

It was definitely an art form it was an art form amongst the Irish peasants at that time, I. Like many other art forms, we've lost it. I mean, we still have the ability to hit each other over the head with sticks. I just don't think we probably do it with Ellis. which I think is probably unfortunate, to have a good elli. But unfortunately these days when you pick one up in the shop, they're usually two or three inches long. And it's actually funny 'cause we're gonna do this season obviously leprechauns, but we talk about how in the mythology of leprechauns, they, became smaller and smaller as Christianity grew bigger and bigger, and the shale did the same. They became smaller and smaller,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 12:22

Yeah. Yeah.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 12:24

and I'd say that you could probably walk down a street anywhere in Ireland, and you would see possibly an old man with, a ele as a walking stick.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 12:33

Mm-hmm. And reducing it in stature, Chris, as you, I know we'll talk about this more in the leprechauns, but that's almost reducing Irishness, this symbol of Irish strength and resistance, you know to almost mock it by reducing it, by diminishing it, you know, it's a clever tactic. You, it was probably one used by by many, a government and many a, a warlord and a dictator today.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 12:57

Well, I can't remember whether you said this earlier. I think you may have touched on it, but the British government have a number of their regiments in the army, have the shali in their coats of arms,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:08

Yeah. Yeah.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:09

and that is almost, an appropriation.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:12

And it shows you Chris, it keeps that connection, you know, so something that was almost, laughed at and snared at is now a proud. Emblem of armed forces from this neck of the woods who, you know, men and women who have, who've died wearing that emblem upon them are under that flag. So, you know, it's found its way back in to, to, maybe more respectful place than where they don't get me wrong, there's nothing quite nice about little miniature surely. But I think now we know what the history of it is. It just makes it that all the more intriguing.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:43

Well, I think I've been sold on it. I definitely want a sele, a beaten sele as I,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:47

I've beaten sli

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:48

a beaten sele. Most definitely. I think we've covered what a sele is, because you know neither of us know how to fight with the Elli,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:59

no.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 13:59

and we'd probably be beaten by our wives with it.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:01

Well, let's here, Chris. I'm trying to think now, 'cause you asked me last episode about favorite vampire films. So I'm gonna ask you now. Favorite film with stick fighting? I, I don't know if this is the correct answer, but the field, it's not what Richard Harris does barringer in with

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:19

He does. Yes,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:20

and tur him in the, it it's a big old ChaLea, isn't it?

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:23

It's a big old sheele. He has a, he carries it with him as a walking stick.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:27

What better weapon you 'cause that, you know, that story is, the commercialization of Ireland, the, you know, capitalism, the rich American coming to buy the land of this man of till for, for, for nothing. And what better weapon symbolically to use than that really. And the other famous fighting sticks still have to be all right. She's just putting your.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:46

I remember. Arthur Conan Doyle had Sherlock Holmes. He had a,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:52

Uh

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 14:52

was more, it was more based, UK based rather than Ireland. But it was a very much a, a gentleman sport, you know, they,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:00

hmm.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:01

gentlemen knew and they were also able to pull the swords outta their sticks, you know, they

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:06

Of course. Yeah.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:07

But I think there was gentleman's martial arts, I can't remember the name of it. I must look it up. Which was why they had their canes and they could use them like swords,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:16

Ah,

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:16

deflect and so on. So

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:18

there's a character in Walking Dead isn't there as a, it's a staff, I guess. More, what do you call him, Morgan?

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:24

oh yeah.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:25

He is a, you know, he's not a shali by any means. You put a big, gnarly, um, end on it. And it is.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:32

Well, that's it. And I think that if we were ever in a situation for the Walking Dead, a stick is probably one of the best, weapons you could have rather than

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:41

Yeah.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:42

'cause you never run out of a stick.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:44

If we keep talking Christian, we're gonna say the walking the Irish.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 15:47

I didn't go into it on our last episode because there was a sideline from our talk, about the Walking Dead and not the film, but the Walking Dead as in vampires and zombies. But I didn't go into it. Maybe I'll go into it in a shorter,

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 16:02

Yeah. Yeah, let's do that.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 16:04

on it. But certainly Ireland does have its own zombies. And various other legends about that.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 16:10

I have to say, Chris, when you first said we were going look at Shali, I thought, well what is there to say? You know? But my goodness, it's been one of those, well, for me personally, you know, it's, it's not as dark as some of our other episodes, but it's really, really, and it's no social side of it, the colonialism and yeah, it's been brilliant. Good. Find how little jam there, Chris.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 16:30

Yeah, I mean, oh, I've just looked up online. You can. You can buy yourself a nice little shali for 60, no, a proper shali for 69 99.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 16:39

Well, that's not bad know what? You get me for my birthday crew?

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 16:42

and that's it. So that's Shaili Spence. So, maybe I have to beat you over the head to find out what we're gonna do next week. Do you.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 17:01

Well, you actually touched upon it earlier when you mentioned, pots of gold and elli. So I think we're about due to visit the little gentleman. Or good friends of leprechauns, Chris, I think there's probably more than one podcast in it. There's much more, as with the ele, there's much more to it than, the gift shop memorabilia that we all see. So I, I, I'd be keen to do the leprechauns.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 17:22

Oh, excellent. So we'll some. We'll be somewhere over the rainbow next week.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 17:29

Excellent. Well, listen folks, thanks very much. We'll put up some things on the show notes in relation to Ellis, and can't wait to chat to you all again in the company of our, the Little Gentry, the Little Men, the Recons.

chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_201555 17:40

Catch you next week top of the morning to you.

squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025_201555 17:44

Bye folks. I,

17:50

Looks like your story has found you. I wish It were another. But what's meant for you, won't go by you. I'm sorry. Ach, now. No need to look so scared, eh? Enjoy the fire. Have a sop. Sure. Is it all just Irish Gothic? All just Irish Gothic.

chris-patterson_10_10-17-2024_205438 18:32

You can find us at iris gothic pod on Instagram or X, or if you want to support us, please buy us a coffee

spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 18:40

and look, while you're there, give us a follow to keep up with all things in the Irish Gothic Podcast. Send us any Irish myths, legends, stories that you'd like us to delve into next.

chris-patterson_10_10-23-2024_190653 18:49

The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought to you by Causeway Pictures. It's hosted by Chris Patterson and Spence Wright. And was produced by Rebecca Alcorn. All rights reserved.

chris-patterson_10_10-17-2024_205438 19:04

Check out our other podcast, Hostage to the Devil, which delves into the dark world of possession and exorcism. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts.